tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1442827238174603755.post6432138049027925719..comments2023-09-11T08:30:08.843-07:00Comments on Life Training Institute Blog: Beckwith: Defending Life, #2 [SK]SKhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/01905606527143286458noreply@blogger.comBlogger3125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1442827238174603755.post-20983105335553747112007-09-14T11:11:00.000-07:002007-09-14T11:11:00.000-07:00Jeremy,I think that you are confusing your terms. ...Jeremy,<BR/><BR/>I think that you are confusing your terms. People can not have objective moral values that differ from mine. You may argue that objective moral values exist and that one or both of two conflicting groups have failed to properly apprehend them, but not that we are operating on two different sets of objective moral values. Objective moral values are true for all people at all times and we either correctly apprehend/apply them or we do not. <BR/><BR/>If you are saying that most people believe in objective moral values and that we are seeing a difference in the apprehension of those values then we disagree. I do not think that the majority of people are operating under the belief that a set of objective moral values exists, they are absolute, and true for all people at all times. A Barna survey taken in 2002 (admittedly a little dated) seems to demonstrate that is not the case as well. Here is a brief excerpt from the study on pure statistics:<BR/><BR/>“In two national surveys conducted by Barna Research, one among adults and one among teenagers, people were asked if they believe that there are moral absolutes that are unchanging or that moral truth is relative to the circumstances. By a 3-to-1 margin (64% vs. 22%) adults said truth is always relative to the person and their situation. The perspective was even more lopsided among teenagers, 83% of whom said moral truth depends on the circumstances, and only 6% of whom said moral truth is absolute.<BR/><BR/>The gap between teen and adult views was not surprising, however, when the adult views are considered by generation. While six out of ten people 36 and older embraced moral relativism, 75% of the adults 18 to 35 did so. Thus, it appears that relativism is gaining ground, largely because relativism appears to have taken root with the generation that preceded today's teens.”<BR/><BR/>If you wish to say that there has been a radical shift in this line of thinking since 2002, then you have seen something I have not. The question on this poll was pretty straightforward. 1,010 adults and 604 teens were asked the following:<BR/><BR/>“Some people believe that there are moral truths that are absolute, meaning that those moral truths or principles do not change according to the circumstances. Other people believe that moral truth always depends upon the situation, meaning that their moral and ethical decisions depend upon the circumstances. How about you? Do you believe that there are moral absolutes that are unchanging, or that moral truth is relative to the circumstances, or is this something you have never really thought about?”<BR/><BR/>So I do think that there is strong evidence that the belief that objective moral values do not exist and that we all have the right to determine what we believe to be the right path relative to our circumstances is strongly rooted in our culture. More, I think it ought to be obvious that such an ingrained belief would have an unavoidable impact on how Americans view the issue of elective abortion. It is not necessary that this is universally true for it to be generally indicative of the current climate on the abortion debate. <BR/><BR/>I agree that the overwhelming majority of people would not claim to be relativist. That fact is probably more an indication that they do not understand the difference between an absolutist and a relativist. At the functional level, it appears that the majority of Americans are skewing toward relativism whether they articulate that or not. <BR/><BR/>If you think that the pro-choice position is predicated on the belief that bodily autonomy supercedes the natural right of a human being to live in an objective moral sense, then you miss the opposition’s argument all together. They have consistently argued that the value of the unborn life is determined by the circumstances of the mother and the mother’s opinion. If the mother thinks the life is of value then the life is of value. If the mother thinks that the life represents a burden or a risk to her then the life has no value. How is that not relativism? How does that fit into a system of objective moral values and absolutes? It is functionally subjective to the whims, fears, and needs of the mother.<BR/><BR/>It appears to look like, smell like, and act like relativismJay Wattshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11298001988620531769noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1442827238174603755.post-47744457443795222952007-09-13T13:11:00.000-07:002007-09-13T13:11:00.000-07:00I'm not convinced that this is relativism. I doubt...I'm not convinced that this is relativism. I doubt most pro-choicers are relativists. They think it's immoral to force women not to have abortions. I don't think very many people are relativists at all, as a matter of fact. Most people have objective moral standards. They're just not the ones the people calling them relativists hold to. But having different moral views doesn't mean relativism. Most people criticizing relativism are usually really opposed to something else, usually some kind of consequentialism, often just egoism.<BR/><BR/>What's most likely in this case is that these particular pro-choicers just don't think abortion is all that bad, and they think someone should be free to do it. If that's their view, it's not surprising that they would see opposition to it as a faulty preference, one not based in any real moral principle. But that doesn't mean they're assuming relativism. It in fact assumes the opposite. They see this as an inappropriate moral (and therefore as merely the expression of the person's preference).Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1442827238174603755.post-85587131660996731192007-09-10T13:45:00.000-07:002007-09-10T13:45:00.000-07:00Great series Scott. I'm waiting for my copy to arr...Great series Scott. I'm waiting for my copy to arrive any day. I'm looking forward to cleansing my palate with the truth after investing much time into reading pro-ESCR stuff!Serge (Rich Poupard)https://www.blogger.com/profile/06648112986475922045noreply@blogger.com