It seems every so often I run across someone on Facebook (rarely in personal activism) who asserts that we must convert people to Christianity in order to end abortion, or that we must share the Gospel at all times with people, whether or not we make pro-life converts. To do anything less goes against God's teachings.
This may sound super spiritual on the face of it, until you stop and consider that, as Augustine said, "wherever truth may be found, it belongs to his master" (On Christian Doctrine, II.18.28). Or as it is commonly paraphrased, all truth is God's truth. Whenever we share the truth about abortion, that it is the unjustified killing of an innocent human person, we are sharing God's truth. Now, it's possible that someone would only be converted after you share the Gospel with them and they come to understand the universe as God does. But it's also very likely that someone will not take the Gospel seriously until they hear a Christian give a reasoned defense of one of their positions in another sphere of knowledge.
I, myself, have met people who said they did not come to Christ until after they became pro-life. In fact, this is true of Bernard Nathanson, an atheist physician who founded NARAL. He became pro-life while still an atheist, then converted to Catholicism later in life.
I have been attending the Clarkson Academy in Battle East Sussex, England. At this conference Michael Sherrard gave a presentation. He is the pastor of a church, and one of the members of his church asked a friend from college if he'd like to attend church with her one Sunday morning. The parishoner's friend was an atheist who agreed to go to church with her because it was important to her. While there, Mike gave a presentation on the pro-life position. The friend was highly impressed with Mike's rational defense of the pro-life position, so the rest of the time the parishoner had with the friend while the friend was in town, he spent time asking important questions about Christianity. His parishoner's friend's interest in Christianity was only piqued because he heard Mike give a reasoned defense of the pro-life position.
The cold reality is that if we want abortion to end, but we think we have to always share the Gospel in order to do it, we're going to turn many people off. We'll never end abortion that way. Scott Klusendorf, in another presentation, reminded us that even the Bible says this: narrow is the way and there are few who find it. We could never possibly hope to end abortion if our only goal is to share the Gospel. If we really want to save babies, we have to be intentional about when we give a reasoned defense of the pro-life position, and when we share the Gospel. Many of my conversations on abortion naturally lead into discussions of ultimate reality, where morality comes from, and so on. But if that was my only goal, I'd never see an end to abortion.
What "atheist" state has criminalized abortion? What most self-styled Christians don't realize is that THEY aren't Christian. U.S. isn't a Christian nation (as Obama pointed out)--no country is today (VC2 Church has de-Christianized every Catholic nation: finally Ireland legalized abortion and sodomite marriage). Britain hasn't been Christian since Protestant rebellion when King became head of the church. John the Baptist died over adultery. So did Thomas More and Edmund Campion (if all are priests, why aren't all Kings too?).ReplyDelete
What protestant doesn't hold that artificial birth control is moral? What Catholic Church enforces ban on birth control? What protestant doesn't believe in religious liberty (state over the church so as to escape the Pope)? That is the beginning of lawlessness: no divorce means divorce. U.S. must now acquiesce to Mormons and Muslims polygamy and child brides plus all manner of Indian witch doctors, voodoo, hindu suttee, etc.
Women (and men) have been liberated from the Holy Bible. No longer do fathers/husbands govern their women (but give them a BC pill). Women don't remain silent and cover their heads in Church (or out), nor earn their salvation through child bearing. What protestant pastor doesn't have his wife co-pastoring his ministry? VC2 Pope Francis wants women leaders and admonishes his flock NOT to 'obsess' about abortion. Abortion must be legal to level the playing field and sodomite marriage must be legal because men and women are equal--contrary to Scripture states: God created them male and female; go forth be fruitful and multiply. "Blessed are all they that fear the Lord: that walk in his ways...Thy wife shall be as a fruitful vine by the sides of thine house: thy children like olive plants round about thy table." (indicates abortion is a punishment; what Christian considers a fruitful wife a blessing?)
Criminalizing abortion via 'education'is a 501c dream of permanent tax free employment. It is like educating welfare recipients to vote against welfare. Religious leaders won't even preach against abortion (not to mention birth control) lest their flocks turn on them. Carly Fiona was pelted w/condoms by thugs hired by planned parenthood and who defended her? Trump is all over the map (but his VP is prolife!). Reagan, Bush et al were "prolife" but their wives while (maybe) personally against it, were pro-choice. If one could take the vote away from women perhaps one could criminalize abortion, but if women didn't have the vote, it would never have been legalized.
I applaud those who are starting to look for a Christian solution; but considering their acceptance of religious liberty, divorce, contraception, women's equality and immodest dress--not to mention overthrow of the priesthood and holy sacrifice of the mass Christ established (just a supper not a sacrifice; don't have to give up your whole life to God, but "ministers" can be married (and divorced)), self-forgiveness of sins and compose one's own Bible. Also trashing of the Blessed Virgin Mary--protestants ask me to pray for them; Elijah and Moses come down to assist Jesus at the Transfiguration, but they can't ask the Blessed Virgin Mary to intercede for them--don't see much success crowning their effort.
It's taken around 500 years to get from the protestant revolt to where so-called Christians like you won't share the Gospel to avoid "turning people off." (That was why John the Baptist failed w/Herod!) You say criminalizing abortion is more important than living the Gospel. Yet probably in a debate I could get you backing all over yourself about how much you luv wimmen and aren't anti-wimmen and wimmen are the victims. What do you really want--to be liked and salve your own conscience?
"finally Ireland legalized abortion"ReplyDelete
In cases of threat to the mother's life, yes. But this seems justifiable given double effect reasoning. Though, I'm not quite pleased with the exception for suicide. There seems a way to ensure that both live, and as such I'm not sure that there is a proportionate reason to justify abortion.
"Religious leaders won't even preach against abortion (not to mention birth control) lest their flocks turn on them."
Very true for a greater portion, no doubt, but this is also decried by many, including those "so-called Christians like you won't share the Gospel to avoid "turning people off" " (which I take you mean Clinton and perhaps LTI).
Besides that, I don't recall him saying that he won't share the Gospel to avoid turning people off, but that in the context of abortion he won't, at least in certain settings. But he, and this group are for using religious arguments on religious people, and all for defending the rationality of theism and then various specific Christian claims, to create a climate where various traditional moral views can be defended more successfully. In any event, it is not uncharitable to characterize them as you do.
"You say criminalizing abortion is more important than living the Gospel."
I don't recall him saying that. Or are you rushing to judgement? But it is said, 'Responding to a matter before he hears it is foolish and humiliating.'
"but they can't ask the Blessed Virgin Mary to intercede for them."
Perhaps that's because there is a difference between asking a person to pray for you and praying to a saint. The former is clearly described in Scirpture, but the latter is oddly absent.
"ministers" can be married
As was Peter, as Paul says when he and Barnabas could be if they so chose.
Did Jesus have a religious argument for pharisees and another one for harlots and publicans? You make no sense. Why is murder wrong? Because God said so. Why do we care? Because we believe heaven or hell awaits us (prots believe they can sin boldly and still go to heaven as long as they believe even more boldly so not sure why they would worry about abortion-- which is why most don't).Delete
Criminalizing abortion must be more important than sharing the Gospel because to win non-believers he will not share the Gospel to change their mind on abortion (what is more important: their soul or abortion?).
"there is a difference between asking a person to pray for you and praying to a saint." One asks a saint to pray for one (intercede)--the way the Blessed (all generations shall call me blessed) Virgin interceded w/her Son at the wedding feast at Cana. How bitter it must be to her & the Trinity that Prots won't even consider her as a role model--and what a tragedy for Prot women (who only have the co-pastor man role to usurp).
Are you a disciple whom Jesus' loves? Have you been at the foot of the cross w/Jesus and His mother? Then hear His words: "When Jesus therefore had seen his mother and the disciple standing whom he loved, he saith to his mother: Woman, behold thy son. After that, he saith to the disciple: Behold thy mother. And from that hour, the disciple took her to his own."
Again as Campion asked the prots: If we are ALL priests, then why aren't we ALL kings? In Fr. Luther's time, priests were not married--they also performed sacrifices on altars--since Fr. Luther not so much (but now 500 years later human sacrifices and Christians murdering their own kin (parents/children) thousands of times every day--legalized--w/the support of most of the sects Luther spawned (not Jesus' fruit to my mind).
Jesus wasn't married. Concurrent w/married "ministers" vs unmarried priests was acceptance of divorce (sexual immorality). Also removing Mary as role model for women (mother and virgin) left only wife--which gave rise to old maid, emph on sex (must be attractive to get any power at all) and complete dependence on men--which of course (just like slavery) ended up w/women's lib from the Prot Bible--which has brought about abortion.
"For there are eunuchs, who were born so from their mother's womb: and there are eunuchs, who were made so by men: and there are eunuchs, who have made themselves eunuchs for the kingdom of heaven. He that can take, let him take it." "I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd giveth his life for his sheep."
"The unmarried man is concerned about the work of the Lord, how he can please the Lord; but the married man is concerned about the affairs of this world, how he can please his wife, and his interests are divided.
Catholic teaching on abortion which Ireland has now overthrown: "There are two questions at issue here. One is medical (Is there ever need for an abortion to save the mother's life?) and the other is moral (Would an abortion in that case be justified?) The answer to both questions is no. There is no medical situation whose only solution is a direct abortion, as many doctors have testified. Morally speaking, furthermore, it is never right to directly kill an innocent person, even if good results are foreseen. We do not say that a baby's life is more important than the mother's. We do say that they are equal. You may never directly kill either one of them. If, in spite of the best medical efforts, one or both of them die, nothing morally wrong has been done, because an effort has been made to save life, but has failed. That is far different from killing."
I didn't really read "anonymous'" comment. If someone isn't willing to stand behind their words, I don't generally take the time to read a lengthy comment. Plus, as you pointed out, this person is making an awful lot of assumptions about what I said and is generally wrong about all of them.Delete
Really the best option to avoid turning anyone off is to avoid taking sides but to be pro-choice. Educate means giving both sides and letting people make up their own minds. God isn't really an argument, is He?ReplyDelete
Georgetown has the right idea: Let Cecile Richards preach Abortion is a basic human right (for the baby, really?)
Or the Catholic Center at U of Maryland--Why prochoice?
Both views are equal:
It's not abortion that's the problem, it's prolifers being negative--Joe Biden plagiarizer & John Boehner, alcoholic, love each other: it's negative prolifers who want to criminalize abortion who are the problem: "Biden, Boehner lament negative politics in Notre Dame addresses"
Prolifers have got to have their single issue free speech blocked, like at Fordham University:
"We were also told that the protesters physically blocked all the entrances of the building where the screening was held. We found out after the film that students who went to go watch it turned around when they saw the protesters."
Or at DePauw U where the prolife students are punished for exposing the pro-abort vandals:
French gvmt announces plan to criminalize websites opposing abortion
California forces prolife groups to promote abortion
Leave God out. He turns people off. And besides you might get your 501c status revoked. Just be reasonable. And the Sex Nazis won't kill you--unless you're a baby.